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Post by superba on Jan 5, 2004 3:07:43 GMT 1
Its just goes to show you its hard to kill off a name that has some history
Joe
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Post by Christian on Jan 6, 2004 0:03:12 GMT 1
My worst 1/87th is the EKO VW. This is wrong from any angle at all.... Funny, that one is a copy of a Wiking model as far as I know. On the subject of Dodge in Europe: whatever troubles DaimlerChrysler may have had, the new Viper is now officially marketed as a Dodge over here. The predecessor was the "Chrysler Viper".
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Jan 6, 2004 0:08:20 GMT 1
Dear Christian:
Thank you for the info.I just hope that the upcoming Dodge Magnum is marketed as Dodge as well,because,according to Motor Trend,it will receive a Chrysler front end and it will be marketed as a Chrysler.
One question:why Chrysler did not used the name Dodge in Europe?
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Post by Eric on Jan 6, 2004 0:32:23 GMT 1
Nick, as far as I know the Dodge name has only been used for commercial vehicles (i.e. trucks / vans) sofar. Maybe DC has avoided to sell cars under the Dodge name because Dodge was too well-known as a truck brand and didn't want the truck-image to rub off on the cars. As an example, the van version of the Chrysler Voyager was sold as Dodge Caravan in the Netherlands.
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Post by superba on Jan 8, 2004 14:00:51 GMT 1
I may be wrong, but I think when Chrysler had major economic problems in the early eighties they divested many european, South American and Asian operations.
The old Routes Groupe was sold off. I think UK Chrysler ie Avengers and Sunbeams were sold off and took the new name Talbot. I think as part of that deal, the old Commer Truck unit was sold as well, including the rights to the use of the Dodge name in Europe.
Again, I may be wrong, but I don't think Dodge Trucks sold in Europe today are associated with DaimlerChrysler......ie Sterling/MB/Freightliner etc.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Jan 8, 2004 16:54:22 GMT 1
Dear Sirs: Chrysler big seller abroad is the Jeep now a days as well.Austria does produce the Gran Cherokee,and in Brazil it took a while to sell these vehicles under their name,because this brand was a Ford product in there.But now is a Chrysler product.And since these vehicles offer vehicles with rhd,these can been sold in Japan and Australia with no problems. Thing is,besides the Freightliners,the Dodge minivans and the Jeeps are the most important-and sucessful-commercial vehicles that this company has to offer.And,since the Daimler got Thomas bus,Orion buses,Setra and their bus division is quite large in terms of model offerings in Germany and abroad ( and they have associations with Mitsubishi's Fuso division) their bus offerings are trully second to none..... .................
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Post by Christian on Jan 8, 2004 23:39:47 GMT 1
Eric alludes to the image as a very important factor. I'd like to add that the Dodge name has virtually no history and therefore no recognition in Germany, one of Europes biggest vehicle markets. We don't get to buy any Oldsmobiles or Mercurys for the same reason. It would need unreasonably high efforts to promote these brands over here.
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Post by jeanmarc on Jan 9, 2004 0:50:23 GMT 1
Superba.
About some Chrysler subsidiaries in Europe, I would add some precisions on what I know…Since the mid 50’s Chrysler had Rootes Group (Sunbeam, Hillman, etc…) in England, Barreiros (Dodge-Barreiros) in Spain, Simca in France (venture between Simca (Fiat) and Ford France)….the economic problems of Chrysler began in the mid 70’s, and lead sale of their European activity to Peugeot in 1977 or 1978….the french company (who bought Citroen few years before) decided to activate again an old french company named « Talbot » , patent right of Simca, known as well in England (vehicles having produced there in the 30’s , 40’s and 50’s), and decided to badge as Talbot , previous Simca range (Horizon, 1307, Solara, 1100,..) and Rootes range ….I don’t remember what occured to Barreiros ?…I think the Truck departement of Dodge Barreiros was sold to Renault RVI (but I’ m note sure ?)….Anyway this started the death of Talbot Simca within 3/4years….Peugeot not able or not want ? to support 3 ranges competiting themselves on the same market ?= Peugeot/Citroen/Simca.… furthermore image of Talbot (luxury and sportives cars….closer to Delage/Delahaye , Jaguar or Facel Vega ) didn’t fit at all with the products mainly popular and middle range vehicles of Simca-Chrysler and Rootes group products…In 1981/82 the brand disappeared definitively , and many Talbot-Peugeot dealer changed to Peugeot or to the competitors ! !…in 1982/83 Peugeot was « said as near to bankrupt »… ? !...(message also for the attention of syndicates)…but the success of 206 went to change this bad slope …and now PSA is still there as medium independant car manufacturer…for how many time ? in this anecdote Talbot as died twice…..the last genuine Talbot (as independant manufacturer) was a real beauty (as some best italians, british or some german such as Bmw 507)….and many people who are 30 years old now think about anything else when someone evokes that famous name…that’s a pity in a way ? !
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Jan 9, 2004 3:50:11 GMT 1
Dear Christian: I am very sorry,but Dodge has a very interesting history:it was founded around 1914 by the Dodge Brothers who worked for Henry Ford and left in order to found their own car company.By the 1920's it was acquired by the Chrysler Corporation and was always the main brand from this Company.Their cars were very reliable and long lasting.A Mexican rebel used one and served him very well.It was only by the 1970's that their cars earned their trashy reputation but up to 1960's,their cars were known to be reliable-yet very staid;their Muscle cars were one the most powerful ever and they also built the most fast police car-the 1969 Dodge Polara-which was clocked by the CHP at 148 mph;rumor had that these could go up to 160,but the agency always denied that. And then there is the winged 1969 Daytona.The Nascar version could go as fast as 220 mph,thanks to the Hemi Engine.Things went by the drain by the 1970's.It was the Dodge division that launched the minivan.Chrysler is the luxury brand,such as the Maybach today and Plymouth was the basement division. Dodge was the only division from Chrysler to offer trucks.There was the Fargos,but these were mostly 'badge engineering' and mostly were Canadian based.Plymouth offered trucks-light ones-briefly in the 1940's,late 1970's and early 1980's.Chrysler never did offered any kind of trucks;their minivan-the Le Baron-debuted sometime in the 1990's ( the Voyager was from Plymouth,but the brand was even LESSER known elsewhere).As Plymouth expired,the Voyager became a Chrysler minivan and the brand was offering two of these vehicles.Equally,Chrysler had a very limited amount of police cars;mostly were either Dodge or Plymouth;the latter held 80% of the market by 1978 (now the Ford Crown Vic is alone-somehow-at that field) De Soto,on the other hand,built very fine taxi cabs.Turkey had the Dolmuses-and these were late 1940's De Sotos;some of these were running at the mid 1980's.If I am not wrong,now this service is operated by Japanese minibuses.De Soto and Plymouth were good competitors to the Checker and that may be the reason why the Turkish called their truck De Soto. I know that the US is the only country that a company has car divisions,but some of these were historically important.Oldsmobile-who got on business by 1897-was the first company that introduced mass production of cars;not Ford as everybody believes. Olds,along with Buick-which comemorated 100 years in 2003-were the cornerstone of GM. Mercury on the other hand is the 'artificial' make,as were De Soto and Plymouth.Yet,the latter also has a good amount of history at its heels....................
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Post by Eric on Jan 9, 2004 9:13:35 GMT 1
Nick,
I think you missed the point in Christian's message, what Christian was saying is that Dodge has no history in Germany, which makes it difficult to sell cars under the Dodge name there.
I might add that this is the case with most US brands here in Holland as well. Somehow US brands are just not to the taste of the Dutch carbuyer anymore which seems odd when you realize they had quite a large marketshare before and after WW2 and held on to that until well into the 1960s.
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skunk
87thScale addict
5th B-day
Posts: 2,762
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Post by skunk on Jan 9, 2004 9:47:59 GMT 1
I must agree with Eric and Christian.
Since most europeans do not have many associations with the Dodge brand, despite their long history, it would not make much sense to divide the marketing effort of a small brand over different names. Interestingly, many times the Dodge versions have been chosen for sale in Europe under the Chrysler name as their "brand philosophy" has been more suitable to European car buyers - viz, the Neon and the Caravan. Chryslers have usually been more traditionally American in their decor, with big chrome grills, "Landau" roofs, and maroon leather.
Interestingly, the MB Sprinter has gone on sale in the states under the Freightliner label, and lately also as a Dodge.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Jan 9, 2004 15:31:57 GMT 1
Dear Sirs:
Yes,I did understand that Dodge and most American brands do not have much history in Europe or the World and I know that lately american cars are not to the European taste,what is very sad.I just told the history part that is faintly known outside of the US and I am very sure that is known by Christian or Eric.Fact is,I learned a good deal with this discussion and I am thankful.
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Post by superba on Jan 10, 2004 3:29:33 GMT 1
Stanhas87:
I think you did a great job passing on the Dodge history, as well as the other Chrysler units.
Your comments regarding DeSoto versus Checker are duly noted, many people may not be aware that one of the reasons Checkers are no longer made was due to Chrysler dumping taxis in the New York City market.
Once Checker lost it dominance in NYC to Chrysler, sales started a twenty year downward trend
Checker sued Chrysler twice and lost both times.
More oriented to 1/87 scale subject. Has anybody made or kitbashed a 1962 Dodge Dart? Its my favorite Dodge
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Jan 10, 2004 6:00:32 GMT 1
Dear Superba: Thank you.About the Checker,I have to note that when to founder passed away,its sucessor was not that interested on the cab business.I do not think that the proposed smaller cab-that looked as a small Citation-would save the company as well.It is a pleasure to know that are still in business,altough not the cab one. About the 1962 Dart:can not you use the car from Revell/Heljan at your project? JL and Hot Wheels manufactured this car in 1/64;Jo-Han in 1/25.I liked this Chrysler too;it had a distincitive look.
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Post by superba on Jan 17, 2004 17:55:57 GMT 1
I am trying to experiment with mold shrinkage. The JL would be the base. I have made a modified 1/64 62 Dodge that fit onto a Aurora slot car chassis. It may be a good base as well.
Last comment on Checker. Today David Markin is the President of Checker Motor Corporation. His son Chris Markin is very interested in the history of the company and would love to build cars again. All the tools and dies still exist except for the hood and roof
Joe
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