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Post by Marc S. on Mar 18, 2004 16:58:34 GMT 1
We are losing a lot of "1/87 infrastructure", and stores are essential in promoting the hobby in my opinion. Christian, I agree that a worrying number of shops are closing down or skip their range of 1/87th scale related articles. However, I would rather regard this as a kind of market shakeout: There are too many shops for a given sales volume too make each and any venture economically viable. Once the market recovers, the number of shops will neccessarily grow. Different from the U.S., Germany has the advantage of 1/87th scale products' presence at toy shops and big outlets such as department stores. Especially Wiking, Busch, and Schuco have access to big retailers, resulting in shelf space, because of their (or their parent companies') line of toys. Hence, I am confident we will not suffer from 1/87th scale models hidden in small, dark, and dusty hobby shops with opening hours to resemble a bank over here. Plus the promotional models car manufacturers hand out to their customers are a valuable means to expose "new blood" to our scale and our hobby. All that makes me quite optimistic about the hobby's future. Best regards, Marc
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Post by Marc S. on Mar 18, 2004 17:12:20 GMT 1
I think you can thank a lot of shop closings do to the internet and ebay in particular. Lee, I am sorry, but I have to disagree. On German eBay, quite a number of sellers actally are hobby shops (and reknown names of the trade), so they generate more sales over the internet than they would have been able to do with their brick-and-mortar business. They do not close down, but they add an electronic branch to their existing shop. Moreover, the internet and eBay in parcticular can help the hobby because people suddenly can see, or ask, what's available in our scale. About the only danger I can see is faced by old-fashioned, over-priced small-town shops without the appropriate selection of brands and models which suddenly find themselves in fierce competition with well-stocked, well-informed and competitively priced dealers in different regions. I am overstating it, but I guess you will get the picture. Marc
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Post by Marc S. on Mar 18, 2004 17:21:29 GMT 1
but still knew nothing much about Roskopf and their truck and bus models of the 20's and 30's until this website. I see a few on display at the local hobbyshops that are not for sale. I still am unable to find them for sale in the US, but have spent somewhere over a thousand dollars buying them up in the last six-eight months on the German ebay. Money that the US and the local businesses lost. Lee, Roskopf as an independent manufacturer is out of the business. The moulds were sold to Sieper Group (Wiking) when Marcel Roskopf died. Unfortunately, Wiking does only make very restricted use of the excellent tooling thy bought. Only the occasional Büssing truck or Hanomag farm-tractor is still produced by Wiking, but branded as their own produt. You will not find much of Roskopf in German hobby shops, but need to find collectors selling their models on eBay or swap-meets. So, even with the best U.S. of German hobby shop you can wish for, your chances to find Roskopf models aren't very high (anymore). Happy hunting! Marc
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Post by Marc S. on Mar 18, 2004 17:41:56 GMT 1
This combines to make the promo-models less desirable, as no one wants to populate a diorama entirely with MB, BMW, Audi and VW. This is the way that Herpa (and to a lesser extent, Wiking) are shooting themselves in the foot, and may also be the reason that there is relatively low interest in Rietze's brave Vectra - it is too late, and awash in a sea of models of the four brands just mentioned. Skunk, For Germany, the selection is almost exactly the one we need. When someone on the Herpa message board mourned the lack of useful models for diorama building and model railroading purposes for the overweight presence of Bimmers and Mercs, I looked up Germany's best-sellers of that month (late in 2003). Of the 50 top-dogs, 43 were available as ready-to-run, injection-moulded 1/87th scale cars by large-series manufacturers! I just don't think there is a lack of contemporary vehicles for the German market. As for Rietze's Vectra, the reason for the lack of sales appears to be a mixture of little interest in mass-market cars, bad marketing by Rietze (it took more than four months to finally deliver the metallic versions!) and lack of shelf presence. (You need to pre-order Rietze models in most places as few hobby shops will stock that slow-selling brand.) - People just don't know there is a Vectra. As for image, while not necessarily desiring a Wiking "Fast and Furious" promotional tie-in, I do believe that a Lancer Evo VIII, an Impreza, or such, will entice many new modellers. Despite low sales numbers, games such as GT1,2,3 make these cars very exciting for most teenagers - even in Germany! Sounds good to me. Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Bentley, you name it - there are so many exciting brands models of which are missing. Perhaps an idea to re-animate the idling market. Marc
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Post by Christian on Mar 18, 2004 18:21:59 GMT 1
It can be said that at times model manufacturers reacted to this trend,but right now,it seems that they only want to sell the ones they feel it sells. Which is their full right to do - honestly, we can wish for anything we want, but no manufacturer will pick it up if it doesn't promise to be profitable. I can't imagine Wiking making a Toyota Corolla, although it is one of the best selling Japanese vehicles in Germany. Neither will they produce a Mazda 6 or a Toyota RAV4. Does that make Wiking evil? No, they are just doing their job. It's ultimately the customers who decide about what will be made. "We" failed in that we didn't buy enough Vectras, or Schuco's 1/72 Japanese vehicles. Keeping that in mind, it is easy to understand why manufacturers avoid risks. That's the other side of the discussion.
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skunk
87thScale addict
5th B-day
Posts: 2,762
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Post by skunk on Mar 18, 2004 18:37:48 GMT 1
Skunk, For Germany, the selection is almost exactly the one we need. When someone on the Herpa message board mourned the lack of useful models for diorama building and model railroading purposes for the overweight presence of Bimmers and Mercs, I looked up Germany's best-sellers of that month (late in 2003). Of the 50 top-dogs, 43 were available as ready-to-run, injection-moulded 1/87th scale cars by large-series manufacturers! I just don't think there is a lack of contemporary vehicles for the German market. Well, there goes my theory. You are probably right though, with the Clios, 206's, and now the Norev Citroëns, the German market is pretty well covered. But I would like to see a similar comparison made for 1988. It also cannot help Rietze that no real people want an Opel, either... And Bill: Yes, the Evo sells in small numbers here in the states. But almost all teenagers (at least on the coasts!) know about it and want one badly - due to movies but mainly Granturismo on PlayStation and various Rally games. It is available in nearly any scale imaginable, usually by several different manufacturers at differing levels of quality. In a similar way, the Skyline GT-R was a must have for modellers a few years ago, despite the fact that it wasn't even sold in the States. And the Evo still outsells Lamborghini, but no one doubts the relevance of making such a model. And lastly: The US car market is populated largely by extremely boring contraptions. Grillions of shapeless four-doors, either Japanese or bad American copies of Japanese cars (all of the charm, but none of the quality...). A couple of cars, a Camry, an Accord, and a Chevy Malibu, should be plenty (in addition to what's already out there) to make a good American diorama. Add to that mix some of the now so popular soft-roaders (Lexus RX300, Cadillac SRX), a minivan or tow, and some of today's youth's aspirational vehicles and we should be set for the American market at least. The problem for the German companies is that they think no one anywhere else would buy a Camry, and probably not the Americans either - and they are probably right. As for hobby stores here in the states: There is one (1) shop in NYC that stocks even a basic selection of 87 scale cars, and it is indeed located in a very dank basement also occupied by various mangy cats and a hobo who does the restocking. The owner is usually in a yellow-stained wifebeater and sweatpants, and my models still smell like him a week later. I, personally, love the internet...
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Post by Marc S. on Mar 18, 2004 19:19:43 GMT 1
Skunk,
Wiking's Mitsubishi Montero (Pajero over here) tells a not-so-nice story. It is one of the best-selling trucks in Europe as a prototype, it is successfully sold in the U.S. and almost any other part of the world - but people didn't buy the Wiking model. I fear the Camry (which is not a mass-market product in Germany) would do even worse.
By the way, I have 1/87th scale Banpresto (correct me if am wrong, Christian) models of both the Evo VII and the Impreza WRX. Someone actually made models of these!
Marc
PS: Give me some time to find the 1988 statistics ;-)
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 18, 2004 19:31:29 GMT 1
Which is their full right to do - honestly, we can wish for anything we want, but no manufacturer will pick it up if it doesn't promise to be profitable. At all,I also understand the cost of the molds verge to the prohibitive side.Hence,if there is a fiasco such as the Opel the company will face a loss of ten of thousands of Dollars,Euros,etc. The vehicles mentioned-Camry,Corolla,Rav4 does appear as toys.Probably,this way,they can cover the cost of the moldings. As a personal note,I do like Wiking.And Herpa,despite the latter's shortcomings.
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BillC
87thScale addict
Posts: 2,541
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Post by BillC on Mar 18, 2004 19:56:25 GMT 1
Skunk:
I certainly don't contest that lots of teenagers would like a Lancer EVO (and, based on their current sales, I am positive Mitsubishi wishes the teenagers had the money). However, how many of them would buy a 1/87-scale model? On the other hand, there are lots of collectors around the world who would buy a model of the Lamborghini.
Rietze could slap a new body on the Opel Vectra and have a Chevy Malibu; they use the same platform.
Based on 2003 full-year sales, here are the "softroaders" you would make before you hit the Lexus:
Ford Explorer Chevrolet TrailBlazer Jeep Grand Cherokee Chevrolet Tahoe Ford Expedition Ford Escape Jeep Liberty Honda CR-V Chevrolet C/K Suburban GMC Envoy Toyota Highlander Toyota 4Runner Dodge Durango Honda Pilot Hyundai Santa Fe
And the SRX isn't even the best-selling Cadillac SUV; that would be the Escalade.
I think you're right about a Camry or Accord, but not for the reason you think. They would sell okay to model railroaders whose layouts are set in the modern era and there might be some collectors who would buy them, but those cars are only popular in North American markets. Furthermore, they are seldom found in any application other than as a family hauler or rental.
A better choice would be the Impala, which is not only GM's bestselling car, it can be reissued as a taxi or police car, increasing its interest to collectors of that type of vehicle.
One thing that car fans, both model and prototype forget, forget is that to a great number of people, the car is a conveyance, not a passion. They buy by the three Rs: Room for the family, Reliability and Resale value. When you understand that, you won't be surprised to learn that better than one out of every ten pasenger cars sold in the U.S. last year was a Camry or an Accord.
To be honest, there probably isn't an American car I would do right now. The interesting stuff is coming. New Ford Mustang, Pontiac Solstice and Chrysler 300, just to name a few.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 18, 2004 20:25:14 GMT 1
A better choice would be the Impala, which is not only GM's bestselling car, it can be reissued as a taxi or police car, increasing its interest to collectors of that type of vehicle. Dear Sirs: That does not surprise me and this is the reason why the Dodge Monaco,Fury,Caprice and Vic are still being done by Busch.Unlimited uses.If the mold the current Impala,the same thin would happen and they would be making money.Further,as is stated in this discussion,this is one of the modern cars.
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Post by Sylvain on Mar 18, 2004 22:17:46 GMT 1
About hobby shops and HO scale models. First, in France, as everywhere else, small toyshops and hobby shops closed down. I won’t be as optimistic as Marc about it. When one shop closes, it does not mean that you will find what you want somewhere else, on the contrary. When I settled in Paris 14 years ago, there was at least 4 car model shops with a large stock of 1/87 scale models. Now there are only two, and for how long? And some models that were sold in the ones that have closed are not found in the two that are still on business.
In France, I don’t think the problem is eBay or Internet, at least not yet. The main problem is large discount stores and the lack of interest of youngsters for these hobbies and most of all the lack of interest of cars modellers for this scale.
There is a question of, shall we say, identity. I don’t know elsewhere, but in France, most hobby shops are specialised, either in car modelling or in railroad modelling. 1/87 scale is definitively associated with trains, so most car model shops don’t sell any 1/87 scale models. In the same time, railroad model shops are not really interested in selling many Ho scale cars, and they concentrate on trains. And the few models they are selling are mostly the few French cars available, with perhaps in old shops an exemption for Wiking, as they are used to get Wiking models when they were among the only ones available.
Difficult when you’re a car addict to be interested in 1/87 car models when you see none in car model shops!
I think the problem is maybe up. I don’t know much about how models are imported or exported, but I think there maybe a problem there. I’m afraid most HO scale manufacturers are only working with model trains sellers, and therefore not in touch with model car shops. That’s maybe why you don’t find any Wiking, Herpa or Busch models in most model car shops.
On the contrary, you can find there the new 1/87 Norev’s, some Schuco’s and even some CMW’s. The reason is simple. These brands are mainly non-HO cars models manufacturers, and therefore directly in touch with model car retailers. Not difficult when you order a large number of 1/43 or 1/18 cars to add a few 1/87 scales models. For example, I know at least two new car model shops, that, when they have open two years ago, did not sell any ho scale models and that now have always some Norev or CMW in stock. What is interesting to see is that these models seem to sell rather well, even in car model shops, so you can now find in some of these shops other Ho scale manufacturers products, like SAI/Brekina 404. Let’s hope it will go one like this. Should non-1/87 scale manufacturers save our scale?
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Post by Eric on Mar 19, 2004 0:02:31 GMT 1
Now if Eric will just copy it to where it belongs ;D I sure will, keep an eye on the site, the next update is due soon.....
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Post by cfesmire on Mar 19, 2004 1:25:39 GMT 1
Phew! This topic is a hot one for sure. Marc I'll agree with you that the internet is not a reason for hobby shop closure. My wife is in the antique business and many of her competitors are venturing into the internet to supplement their slow time in winter, not to replace their permanent place of business. I hear mention also of the video game folks setting the trend in young peoples taste in autos and I will have to agree there as well. I have been interested in these gaming folks for some time because of their desire to stay true to prototypes when they render the drawings for the games (I do not, and never have, actually played a video game). Their influence over young people is undisputable (unfortunate actually). Chester
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skunk
87thScale addict
5th B-day
Posts: 2,762
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Post by skunk on Mar 19, 2004 6:49:25 GMT 1
Chester - I feel you. I personally loathe video games, but I also own a PlayStation. The only games I own are Granturismo 1 and 2. These games are extremely realistic, based only on real cars that handle accordingly. I have let my grandfather play this (he has never ever touched a game console before), and he did well, because he knows how to drive. Meanwhile, people who do nothing but play video games are not necessarily very good at GT, which might be evidence of the level of realism in the game.
To me, the good thing about this game is that it makes staying true to real life exciting. And 1/87 modelling is all about replicating reality, whereas most 1/64 models (sorry Nick) and video games seem to be about avoiding reality.
Car companies like Aston Martin and TVR consider GT one of their prime advertising strategies, which goes to show the impact of the game on the average young male mind. Catering to those kids, who by now appreciate realism and attention to detail, may actually serve the H0 industry well.
Sylvain (and France) provides us with more hope for the future. Maybe if Herpa, Wiking, Busch, et al, link up their distribution networks in various countries with manufacturers that are big locally we can expect to see their models in hobby shops all over the world. This will also open dependable markets for non-German cars, as currently seen in the boom in French prototypes. Will the German boys respond with new French products? I hope so. It might be a good idea for Rietze to finally make some C5's...
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 19, 2004 18:04:17 GMT 1
Dear Skunk:
I heard of the realism of the video-games;I was told that there exist a similar one that trains figher pilots.I do believe that the rally game is also very realistic. What atracted me to 1/64 is its vast variety.Two problems stand: one,is the fact that this scale is not fixed,as opposed to 1/87; second,real cars per se will be the ones from Muscle Machines from Racing Champions Ertl.The engines had real block color and the Chassi was not held by screws or rivets,as the real thing.Plus these had mirrors,detailed everything,etc. 1/64 also reacts quickly to new happenings.That does not mean that the results will be accurate,but at least one has something.
Also,I was told that potential video-gamers are being atracted to model railroading.If more companies develop systems as Faller,then the future of 1/87 may.just may be assured.Three inch remote control cars are a hot item,but I would not touch these because they are not models of any car.
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