skunk
87thScale addict
5th B-day
Posts: 2,762
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Post by skunk on Mar 17, 2004 3:05:29 GMT 1
Big topic...
I am only 26, so I guess I represent "new blood". True, it has always been an old man's hobby, but I've always been in my early sixties on the inside. Even as a ten-year-old I would scream at my little brother for trying to introduce cars in the wrong scale into our sandbox (!) - this was why I loved Siku, as everyone else (including majorette) seemed to worry more about the size of the carton than about the scale.
The state of toys in USA is desperate - electronic games (made in Japan) represent the best available - everything else is flimsy plastic junk. Over the last year I have seen the only two interesting toy stores in the region close their doors. Lego, Brio, and Playmobil represent a level of finesse unmatched within Wal-Mart or Toys-R-Us, but only a millionaire can afford such toys here.
But like you all agree: If we expose children and others to quality toys and our off-beat hobby, even if they don't like it right away, some portion of them will eventually return. I always produce cars that my wife desires, which makes her chuckle. Still, I cannot see her trawling eBay for something hard-to-find.
I think we are best off in smaller numbers: Bill's (?) comment about the possible "Scooby-doo BMW" sent chills down my spine. I would be happier depending only on artisans such as Joe, Christian, and everybody else here, than having to face atrocities such as those committed by Mattel et al. With the steady improvement in CAD/CAM techniques, a fairly small circle of adherents will be able to support a decent amount of companies.
And lastly, I remember going to train stores in Germany as a child: Every other customer was a graying man with a paunch, a cigar, and a homburg. The more things change, the more they stay the same...
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BillC
87thScale addict
Posts: 2,541
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Post by BillC on Mar 17, 2004 13:25:15 GMT 1
Since 1998, I have been offering clinics on scale model vehicles at various model railroading events. Every person who attends leaves with a new model.
Sometimes, when we have our display layout set up, I will see a youngster paying more attention to the vehicles than the trains. If circumstances (and the youngster's parents) permit, they go home with either a CMW model, or if they are a bit older, an inexpensive Herpa or Wiking.
I also contribute door prizes. They are always vehicle models.
Every year, I ask for or buy extra catalogs from Busch, Herpa and Wiking. I hand these out, too.
I sometimes think of this as planting seeds in the hopes a future hobby interest will bloom.
Chester's idea is wonderful, I don't have the skills he possesses, so I have to stick with the store-bought stuff.
I am not suggesting everyone do these things. But I am suggesting that, when we can, we share our knowledge. Know your local shops or good online retailers. The people in this group have an extensive knowledge of what's available in 1/87 scale. Perhaps you will see someone with questions in a store. In the U.S., it's quite likely the proprietor will not know the answer. Perhaps you could help the person.
How many new hobby fans could be won with a simple act of kindness?
As Skunk suggests, if you are worried about young people and the future of the hobby, treat them well when they are interested in yours.
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Post by cfesmire on Mar 17, 2004 20:51:46 GMT 1
Let me say that this topic is of importance to me and judging from the replies I see to many of you as well. One of the words that keeps resounding in my mind on the subject of the future of this scale and scale modelling in general is recognition. It is, of course, important to recognise scale and be accurate with dimensions in order to produce an accurate portrayal of a certain vehicle, house etc. But this is not particularly what I mean. Witness the number of websites devoted to this scale. We have a variety of subject matter from cranes, fire equipment, military pieces to sports cars represented in the numerous sites from across the map. Folks out there wish to display the fruits of their efforts be recognised for them. I, for one, unashamedly admit to waiting with great anticipation for the next photo gallery on the 1-87 Vehicle Club site to see if one of my models will be displayed. I always call my wife in to see my model, along with my name on the sceen. (Even though she has already cleaned around the piece for Lord knows how long). Further, how many more would have their own sites if possible? Many years ago, a local sporting goods store, sponsored an annual fishing tournament for kids. He spent a lot of time and money promoting this event and had some wonderful prizes. Always, the local paper was there and the winners pictures standing proudly with their prize were published the next week. Now these kids have grown by now, but I guarantee that many of them still fish. Recognising their efforts promoted their esteem and self-confidence as well as instilling in them a lifetime of memories associated with that recreation. It was about this time, a model club, joined annually for about $6.00, gave a kid a model a month. These were 1/64 models with about 6 or 8 pieces to the most complicated. Each month one recieved a simple one page newsletter as well. Its’ basic message contained the winner of some previous months model, painted and detailed by a member. My kids swore this was rigged because often I would finish models for them and they were sure they would be in the next newsletter. I think about the recognition associated with the above activities and wonder why I’m not seeing similar tournaments for young people sponsored by hobby folks. The sporting goods proprietor became well known for his efforts and in addition to increasing his business dramatically, was thought of as an important contributor to his community. A good citizen. I know it is difficult to devote time to things outside our family and occupations. I belong to 2 civic organisations and hold a position in local government as well as running a business. I only wish I could find the individuals in my area, I could talk into doing a contest of sorts for kids. It is a lot of work. Think about that trophy you won at the age of 8 (for years I kept a ribbon in my room of a swimming meet I took 3rd place in) and how you associate that prize with what it was reward for. In my mind, if we want to ignite a spark in any young persons ambition towards a hobby like ours, it has to have a carrot, a reward, a prize a recognition of that young persons endeavors and that their future will hold the experience of building that model as a good one. After all, we all need a little recognition.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 17, 2004 21:25:19 GMT 1
Dear Sirs:
All of the comments about our hobby/activities are well put. On the brighter side,I heard that the youngsters who like video-games are adopting model railroading as a second hobby (after all,both of them have the same basics). I also think that is a good ideia to promote the hobby to the kids any way is possible.One of the aspects of this hobby that is being forgotten is history-after all,this activity has a lot to see with it.What I mean,if one likes,say,Chrysler as I do- will try to know its history,which one was its first vehicles (and at times,the person will not bother to add Maxwell models to his/her collections) or which one the most significant and so on.With Daimler at the picture,one may care about Benz,Daimler or Mercedes models-and so on.The same applies at the history of the miniatures-who,what,etc. The members of this site showed a good amount of knowledge about this subject-history,that is-and if this hobby is to be sponsored that face of this hobby has to be exposed as well.I agree hearthly about the competitions,prizes and the most essential of all-literature,because the latter will show what is avaliable and the individual who will be exposed to it may like a certain portion of what he/she been shown to, be it cars in all of their varieties,trucks,buses,construction and military vehicles or more.From my experience as a collector,people collect the theme,make or modeler they like;hence,it is important to show the newcomer what is avaliable or to reaspond what can be found at a certain scale.This site has done that and trust me this is a very good help and promotion to this scale.The rest,as I was told by Chester,Bill and Skunk is to expose dynamically the public about it be it by competition.literature,promotions,sites the works.When I came to this country in 1979,literature about this subject was scarce even for Matchbox and the only serious book about it was the 'Model Cars of the World',published in 1967.Ten years later,literature was avaliable and now one have sources even for model buses.The thing missing is the exposure to these and this is up to individuals-as always will be the case.
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Post by Christian on Mar 17, 2004 23:40:39 GMT 1
I see a problem with the theory of circles. It works on the shelf level - 1/87 models replaced by something else replaced by 1/87 models again - but I have seen many (specialized) shops closing down lately. That is the problem: as long as a shop owner replaces models with video games you can always hope for a return of the former to the shelves, but what if the shop isn't there anymore? Will it just open again when the mood swings, can we really assume that?
We are losing a lot of "1/87 infrastructure", and stores are essential in promoting the hobby in my opinion.
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Lee
Senior Member
Posts: 1,899
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Post by Lee on Mar 18, 2004 0:34:29 GMT 1
Most interesting how and where this thread has taken off to. It shows that it is a major concern in everyone's thinking. The thoughts and ideas coming out are great!
I think you can thank a lot of shop closings do to the internet and ebay in particular. A small business has to develop a customer base and keep building on it. When I was partners in a hobbyshop, for the first couple of years we barely were able to pay the rent. The margin is narrow and if people can buy elsewhere for less, you are out of business. I have seen items selling for less than I could get it for wholesale - go figure.
We as a whole, and I mean people in general, are shooting ourselfs in the foot. Everytime we buy something at a discount house cheaper than we could in a regular store, we are helping to put the little guy out of business. I know one owner of a hobby distibrutorship that refuses to sell to other than a hobbyshop with a storefront, but does the shopping for the family at Costco, a discount store. That person does not see the difference in thought. We are also limiting the selection that will be offered to us in the future because big business is always looking at the bottem line and not just what the customer wants.
I have seen at least a dozen hobbyshops come and go in Glendale in my lifetime. The reason for the closing of each was various, but basicly the same. They couldn't make enough profit to stay in business. The owners of the first hobbyshop that I worked in as a teen figured out at the end that they made twentyfive cents an hour over all the years they were in business.
The future of the model industry may very well be on the internet. The overhead costs are way below that of opening a storefront. Just about all the hobbyshops that are doing a good business today have a web page, sell on ebay and the internet in general. They are trying to find ways of staying in business and make a profit.
Ways we can help to keep the hobby alive? Find and report links to Eric so a two way hookup can be done. Have you ever noticed that when you do a Google search for anything that ebay will be in there? That is link hookup! Check and see in your local library has display cases. I know that Glendale's main library has two glass display cases that they are always trying to fill with new and fresh ideas. Your local hobbyshop probably would help out with catalogs, etc if you gave them credit. A display of minitures will alway catch my attention. Yes, we all are writing long posts because we have a lot to say. ;D
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 18, 2004 1:38:17 GMT 1
Dear Sirs:
Since hobby stores are being mentioned,I can give five stars to Burbank House of Hobbies-from Burbank California.They introduced me to HO vehicles and they were in business since 1948 and when one of the owners passed away at the late 1980's,the City of Burbank asked what it would happen to it.By 1992 it was at the hands of its current owner,and as I stated before,he is very active for the hobby.An extensive selection of HO cars and trains can be found and for a while it was the only place that had the boxed ( or ROW-Rest of The World) Matchboxes,plastic models and many more.They are at eBay;consequently,they have another way to do global business.The owner is also present to the HO swap meets from MVU. Allied Trains been in business for this long as well,and also have a site,but I do not know if they are at eBay.They are a very large train store and one finds all kinds of trains and HO cars in there. There are others such as the Original Whistle Shop of Pasadena,The Roundhouse from North Hollywood and the Train Stop from San Dimas.All of these are sucess stories and they been in business for a good while and since they are still operating,they may have 'adapted' to the new toy and model business environment. Since Busch will release several LAPD units and a LA bus this year,is a good ideia to exibit these any place one can imagine of. And of course,I know of three hobby stores that disappeared,one in Glendale by the early 1990's and another one-which was quite large-in Burbank.
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Lee
Senior Member
Posts: 1,899
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Post by Lee on Mar 18, 2004 2:58:25 GMT 1
From an American point of view: I think the problem is that too few people know what is already out there and there is too little fresh variety to keep those of us who do know coming back. I have been a HO model r""""""der (1/87th scale to you guys) for over 45 years, reading the Walthers catalog and following E&R's imports, but still knew nothing much about Roskopf and their truck and bus models of the 20's and 30's until this website. I see a few on display at the local hobbyshops that are not for sale. I still am unable to find them for sale in the US, but have spent somewhere over a thousand dollars buying them up in the last six-eight months on the German ebay. Money that the US and the local businesses lost.
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Lee
Senior Member
Posts: 1,899
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Post by Lee on Mar 18, 2004 3:40:34 GMT 1
Okay by me. Lee asked me if I would write one, and I guess I did. Bill C. Now if Eric will just copy it to where it belongs ;D
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Post by Mark Maticek on Mar 18, 2004 3:58:38 GMT 1
I would like to put a more optimistic "spin" on this thread.
When I started collecting 1/87 vehicles in the mid 1960's, Anguplas and Wiking were about the only choices here in the States. I was thrilled when Tyco released their AMX and Chevrolet Camaro, even though they are pretty crude by today's standards. I saw several HO vehicles reviewed in British magazines and tried to figure out how to purchase them. No Herpa, no Rietze, no Praline/Revell/Busch, no AWM, no High Tech Modelle, no LeMans Miniatures, Evrat, Carbonne, Lion, US Models, Banpresto, Mini Collection, Widea, SAI, Classic Metal Works, Boley, etc.
My point is this: in Milwaukee, where I live, there was only one hobby shop carrying 1/87 vehicles in 1968. Most shops today carry at least a few 1/87 vehicles. Models that I once hoped would make it to the US are a mouse click away by way of the internet. I have managed to obtain every new model I want by ordering on-line (most of the time in Germany). For example, I just received the new Busch Audi A6 and Herpa Mercedes 2004 SLK from an internet order.
My friends, compared to 1968-78, this is the golden era of 1/87 vehicle collecting. More choices and better access.
Sure, we always want a better selection, but the variety and quality of today's models were unimaginable only a few years ago. This quality amazes the people I show my collection to and maybe I have converted a few people to this hobby.
As far as younger participants, just look at the leaders of this web site. Albert, Christian, Eric and Jean-Marc are all under 40, some under 30. They will be around a long time to spread the gospel of 1/87 after us "old-timers" are history.
While 1/87 vehicle collecting is a distinct hobby in Europe, success in selling HO vehicles in the United States has to be directly tied to Model R*********g. These hobbyists require inexpensive American prototypes. Volume sales are necessary for a manufacturer to be successful if the models they produce are not underwritten by auto manufacturers. Atlas and Classic Metal Works have tried to follow that formula. Their models are American, inexpensive and reasonably detailed. Remember, the Model R*********g community is more interested in spending their money on trains and will use cheap substitute vehicles if the price is prohibitive. We have to reach this group with quality and resonably priced models so that the manufacturers are enticed to produce more variety.
Since the American companies seem reluctant to fill this niche, hopefully the German companies will eventually step in (perhaps a dream).
Nonetheless, while the hobby may not grow to the extent that we would like, I think the releases at Nurnberg this year should give us reason to be optimistic.
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BillC
87thScale addict
Posts: 2,541
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Post by BillC on Mar 18, 2004 5:37:56 GMT 1
In my mind, if we want to ignite a spark in any young persons ambition towards a hobby like ours, it has to have a carrot, a reward, a prize a recognition of that young persons endeavors and that their future will hold the experience of building that model as a good one. After all, we all need a little recognition. Chester: For three years, I have sponsored the 1/87 Vehicle Club's Holiday Model Contest. While various merchants, including Promotex, Truck Stop Models, Flint Imports have given me generous discounts, I have paid for every prize except a few provided by Lonestar Models. With shipping and other expenses, I spend an average of about $500 each year. While we have few entries, they have gotten better each year. When the 1/87 Vehicle Club had its first German meet in Fulda, I arranged for a shipment of Athearn models to be used as prizes. I am perfectly willing to do the same for another contest, even a contest with different levels, so both young people and adults can each compete on a level playing field. Ribbons and trophies are no problem. So, if anyone has ideas along these lines, please let me know.
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skunk
87thScale addict
5th B-day
Posts: 2,762
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Post by skunk on Mar 18, 2004 9:28:34 GMT 1
Remember, the Model Railroading community is more interested in spending their money on trains and will use cheap substitute vehicles if the price is prohibitive. We have to reach this group with quality and resonably priced models so that the manufacturers are enticed to produce more variety. I have nothing against simple models intended for background display: That is after all how Wiking got started. A well proportioned model consisting only of a shell, glass, wheels, and a crude interior, is an excellent starting point to make anything one wants. My one desire (and if I ever find myself possessing some of the time and the means) is that some manufacturer will produce a variety of prototypically correct wheels and rims: This is really the only thing that is nearly impossible to scratchbuild. On a slightly different topic: Are todays cars too boring to model? I think so, but I know that I am fairly reactionary when it comes to cars (I bristle at the notion of airbags and ABS, for instance). But it seems that no one is interested in making new cars, except for the oft-discussed Herpa and Wiking promo-models. This combines to make the promo-models less desirable, as no one wants to populate a diorama entirely with MB, BMW, Audi and VW. This is the way that Herpa (and to a lesser extent, Wiking) are shooting themselves in the foot, and may also be the reason that there is relatively low interest in Rietze's brave Vectra - it is too late, and awash in a sea of models of the four brands just mentioned. I know that when I myself got into the hobby, I was only interested in the newest cars possible, and I think that I had that in common with today's youngsters. It is hard to get into a hobby where one cannot buy the cars one desires for oneself - and most teens lust after new cars rather than classics. It is also essential to be able to own a model of the car your daddy drives, otherwise one will be forced to look towards another scale. As for image, while not necessarily desiring a Wiking "Fast and Furious" promotional tie-in, I do believe that a Lancer Evo VIII, an Impreza, or such, will entice many new modellers. Despite low sales numbers, games such as GT1,2,3 make these cars very exciting for most teenagers - even in Germany! And imagine the added possibility of Rally editions. I only wish Herpa would realize it... While not trying to turn this topic into a wishlist (I'm not too interested myself, I'd rather see an Autobianchi A112 ) I also believe that some current supercars would entice a lot of modellers. Schuco's Carrera GT may actually represent a great beginning: Affordable, and a car every red-blooded pre-teen is lusting after. Now let's see a Pagani Zonda, a TVR, a Ford GT, a Murciélago, a Bugatti Veyron, etc, etc. After all, teenagers still buy posters of these (despite video games?), so why wouldn't they buy models? And, once they become older and wiser, they'll realize that they'll need some more pedestrian machinery in order to display the extreme vehicles that they purchased back when they were 11...
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Post by hofan on Mar 18, 2004 10:12:48 GMT 1
I agree, youngsters are far more interested in modern cars that they see on streets than they are about an old 300sl or Bugatti. Model collecting is very much tied into memories and even if youngsters are not interested in collecting new models now they will look for them when they get old as each one of us has some nice memories about certain models from our past and we want these models to be available in this scale. I think this industry has passed through ups and downs and today it still did not reach the bottom side where it will start to grow again. Although there were some interesting models on the Nuremberg toy fare but the major companies did not offer any of these and all of their models were anticipated and we knew that they will be made sooner or later( even Busch has joined this theory).
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 18, 2004 12:45:51 GMT 1
Dear Sirs:
If the HO manufacturers do not seem to get it-modern car-and not all Mercedes,BMW or Audi-may atract the youngster to the hobby,it seems that other companies-specially the ones from 1/64-do,and I am basing myself about the comments about the 'fast and the furious' (which,incidentally,is a cult movie now). In all,that is one thing that I agree:when someone-whoever-wants to collect model cars it will be the ones that he/she relates to.Either the ones they or the family had or the ones that never could afford to own.It can be said that at times model manufacturers reacted to this trend,but right now,it seems that they only want to sell the ones they feel it sells.Personally,one of the things that attracted me to EKO was the fact that they were offering an enormous variety of models while Wiking (and by all means,that is a favorite of mine) kept stationary at their releases.I also remember that I liked Praline from the beginning when I saw their Firebird and other american models. In all,as my experience taught me,if one can find his/hers favorite model at this scale,it certainly will go to the other scales and that applies to all ages who like vehicles.I may be bitten off again,but it seems that 1/64 modelers are answering to the 'modern' ideias fast either by offering showcars that may became popular or the ones from a cult movie (there were at least two manufacturers doing the vehicles from 'the fast and furious';yet,now these exist even on the RC world). It goes back to circle of 'adapting' to the current circumstances.Granted,as it always happened,if the big ones will not make it,someone else will.After all,the Mitsubishi EVO II graduated to several scales,RC and so on.Why not 1/87? This topic is great or what?
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BillC
87thScale addict
Posts: 2,541
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Post by BillC on Mar 18, 2004 12:46:25 GMT 1
The Mercedes SLR McLaren will be available soon and the new SLK model is pretty nice, too. Folks wishing for modern cars have plenty of company, even among us old guys. Don't forget, most of us grew up in the days when every fall was an exciting time because the new cars were coming. I grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and felt myself to be an insider because I knew what the fall would bring by summer, which, as I later learned, was only about a year after my Dad knew what it would look like. But what to you make? In February 2004, manufacturers reported sale of 268 different car and light truck models in the United States. That doesn't count variants like the Camry Solara, which is simply counted as a Camry. How do you pick what to turn into a 1/87-scale model? Most popular? That's the Ford F-Series for the 22nd year in a row. Most popular car? Toyota Camry; either the Camry or Accord has been the best-selling car since 1997. Best-selling American car? That's the Taurus, same as it's been since 1989. Mitsubishi Lancer EVO? 391 sales in February. The Impreza did slightly better at 2,549. By contrast, Toyota sold 30,350 Camrys last month. "The Fast and the Furriest" may have been a box office smash, but it sure didn't translate into sales of the actual cars. Probably not going to be the first pick by a modelmaker who want solid, long-term sales because he needs to sell 50,000 or so copies into a relatively small market. Maybe as a diecast? You want a realistic street scene for the U.S.? You need pickups, SUVs and a bunch of 4-door sedans. For all the hype about pickups and sport-utility vehicles, family sedans are still the largest segment of the light vehicle market in the U.S. Like it or not, the vanillamobile rules. Problem is, that's not likely to appeal to many collectors, though the model railroad fans would be happy. As for Nuremberg, how many of you knew in advance all that would be offered? Sure, we knew about the promo cars that would be added to the general lines, but were you expecting the GMC bus? The Wiking ATVs? The Herpa Liebherr mobile crane? I knew about some of these in advance, but I still found a surprise or two.
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