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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 7, 2017 21:41:21 GMT 1
All, mo87 just released a comprehensive list of 1:87 models that Minichamps has in the works. The list is so amazing that I think I must be dreaming! Vito, this one's for you my friend, because I know you're going to pass out. Cheers! www.mo87.de/index.php?st=1&kat=9075Tony F.
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 8, 2017 20:54:02 GMT 1
Tony,
That's probably one of the biggest developments in HO vehicle collecting/modeling in the past 10 years if it goes into production. Are these new vehicles going to be in plastic? I'll definitely be getting quite a few, and I'd really like to add the Mercedes GL Class, (2010-2016). Also, let's not forget the US market! How about Cadillac CTS, DTS, and SRX versions from 2010-now? That is when Minichamps will really get me excited.
Vito L.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 8, 2017 22:02:20 GMT 1
Vito,
I agree. It's been quite a long time since we've had a REALLY exciting year of announcements and releases. Thinking back to '07 and '08, we witnessed some really nice models announced. However, a number of them never made it to market. Given the volume of models that Minichamps just announced, I hope that they all make it to store shelves...and, within a reasonable amount of time.
If I'm not mistaken, they use resin for their replicas, so I'd assume that these would be made of the same material. Minichamps' recent items have been of excellent quality, so I'm sure they'll do the same with these. It's really nice to see several modern SUVs on the list. Given SUVs' popularity in both the North American and European regions, I'm really surprised that the 1:87 model manufacturers have been so slow to include them in their product portfolios. Model companies have been so incredibly cautious that I think they're crushing their own potential 1:87 demand. I just can't understand why 1:43 scale is doing so well while 1:87 scale is languishing. I firmly believe that a contributing factor is the fact that the offerings are so sparse, and also that most of the new stuff announced is from historical eras that probably don't appeal to younger collectors. Let's hope that exciting announcements by the likes of Minichamps and BoS go a long way to change this.
Vito, I'm with you regarding the Cadillacs. HO scale replicas of that brand would appeal to collectors in the U.S. and Europe, given the brand's presence in both regions. The only challenge might be GM's resistance to licensing replicas below a certain size. However, something may have recently changed given the late model Corvette we got last year. I truly hope that GM has loosened up on that because I'd like to see the 2017 Opel Insignia Sport Tourer (wagon) come to market as a 1:87 model, in addition to the Cadillac CT6 and XT5 Crossover.
But, as for now Vito, the news we received yesterday is "Wunderbar"!! I'll go with it and buy many of them when they're released.
Cheers!
Tony F.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 8, 2017 22:13:38 GMT 1
Vito,
By the way, Busch makes a nice 2010 GL-klasse. I just wish they'd had the funds to keep up with the car's evolution and produce the 2016 version of it. Maybe if their upcoming G-Wagen sells well they'll consider investing more in future Mercedes.
Tony F.
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Post by mstar on Feb 10, 2017 1:00:58 GMT 1
The Minichamps models will be made from plastic this time. Like models from herpa according to mo87.
Cadillac models are out of the question. They will make sport cars and performance models from German premium brands like Mercedes, BMW and Porsche. Maybe also Audi.
And Cadillac has basically no presence in Europe. They are sold here. But only a few.
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jeffh
Junior Member
Posts: 120
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Post by jeffh on Feb 10, 2017 18:38:49 GMT 1
I believe that a valid point has been made about the 1:87 manufacturers crushing their own demand.
I wonder sometimes to what extent these manufacturers have done market research on the potential 1:87 scale markets in large and growing economies in China and India (and Brazil and Russia once they recover). Surely these economies combined must represent some market for 1:87 scale vehicles. Bachmann has an HO scale Chinese train range and Frateschi in Brazil produces HO scale trains and buildings.
If there is a market in these economies, I would hazard a guess that they are not particularly interested in 20 iterations of the Porsche 911 or East German cars from the 1960s. I firmly believe that there is a large market for these vehicles in Europe, but a model of a vehicle with universal global appeal may be more popular in these markets. I am not advocating releasing 1:87 scale models of Geelys or VW Lavidas or VW Gols or VW Savieros, but possible something which is popular in all markets, such as a Toyota RAV 4 or a Land Rover Discovery or a Japanese pickup such as a Hilux or even a Hyundai or Kia. In the case of SUVs, it appears that the main manufacturers do not see demand which would make the production of SUVs feasible in the absence of promotional model orders. This would appear to preclude the production of any new Mercedes or BMW SUV models. Possibly, we may see a new Porsche Cayenne from Schuco next year and maybe Wiking will add to their new Landrover 110 SW with a modern Range Rover / Landrover. Given that BoS models have produced a number of surprises last year, maybe we will see a modern SUV from them. A Jaguar F Pace or Range Rover Sport or even the forthcoming Ranger Rover Velar SUV coupe would be a nice addition to the Evoque in the current BoS range.
On the positive side, the coming Minichamps range is unexpected and excellent news. It is great to see modern BMWs in 1:87 scale again. An X5 M or X6 M would be a welcome addition to the planned range.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 10, 2017 19:27:28 GMT 1
Jeff,
Yes, I fully agree! I mentioned that years ago on this forum regarding the need to focus much more heavily on Eastern European and Asian markets. And you bring additional insight with your thoughts about South America!
In addition, there's surely additional unmet demand from North American collectors, as evidenced by BoS's willingness to continue to produce U.S. prototypes (including the recent modern 'Vette and upcoming Lincoln Limousine). They've done an excellent job developing their latest designs that help to make their production more profitable.
In addition, River Point Station's modern F-series pickups' sales success speaks for itself. I tracked some of those on Ebay and units sold in hours, not weeks!
So, I agree, strong, thorough, up-to-the-minute consumer research is what's needed. We live in the age of social media, so developing targeted studies should be relatively simple and cost-effective...if we really want to keep 1:87 scale alive and thriving.
Cheers!
Tony F.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Feb 11, 2017 5:49:22 GMT 1
Dear All:
Not interested in any of this models.If only they did a Diplomat,Saint Regis,Aries,the new Ford Taurus,Fusion or the mentioned Cadillacs then this would be interesting.At least Brekina is coming with the first generation Jeep Wagoneer and BOS is doing a fantastic selection of vehicles.
More Mercedes,BMW,Porsche? Isn't there a fair amount of them?
My two cents.
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 11, 2017 20:14:29 GMT 1
mstar,
Does Cadillac really have to have a major presence in Europe in order for the HO collector to add to his/her collection? How many Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, and BMW vehicles does one need in order to be satisfied? Every make from every model year? A true collector will have a diversified collection of quality, accurately proportioned HO vehicles of all types and manufacturers. Mercedes Benz makes up possibly only 4-5% of the US market, yet I have MORE Mercedes Benz on my layout and in my collection than I will ever need. Same goes for every European make except for VW, which has at least 8-9% of the US market.
After saying this, I will buy Minichamps" new HO vehicles because I truly want them to succeed and I know they will be high quality.
Vito L.
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geco65
Junior Member
Posts: 197
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Post by geco65 on Feb 11, 2017 22:15:16 GMT 1
Dear All,
Hello. For what it's worth, my two pence input. I remember some years back, on this forum, I asked why the big model manufacturers kept on churning out the same old Mercedes 190SLs, Porsche 356s etc etc and I think it was Marc Schmidt who replied saying two things. Firstly, many of the bosses of the big model manufacturers have a say - a personal say - in what models they want their firms to produce. They obviously like producing the German classics that have already been produced, perhaps trying to better the quality each time. Secondly, profit. The 87th scale market is big in Germany and German speaking countries - as Brekina recently advised me when I asked for more British cars to be made ! Therefore, they produce models that will sell well in these countries and thus explains the high presence of German cars - sometimes, over and over again.
We must remember that these manufacturers are companies in it for profit, like most other industries. To produce a Cadillac, or a non-German or popular European car is a major risk to the model manufacturer. I always remember the example of Rietze and their production of the Opel Vectra. A German car, but not that exciting to the model railroader. It nearly brought down Rietze due to the lack of sales. I also note the Neo scale models. Some great models and yes they were a little bit more expensive for the collector (though I note recent models are equivalent in price nowadays) but - and I am not sure of the production numbers, 5000/10000 - so many are still on the shelves or being offered continuously in discount stores on ebay. The 87th scale market is just not that big anymore, though not sure it was massive to begin with, but it is certainly shrinking in my opinion. Thus, it begs the question, are there 5000 or 10000 people willing to buy one model each of what the firms produce. Not even sure there is looking at how many models remain on the shelves, though that is saying every collector wants one of every model produced, which personally I know is not the case, as I do not.
I am not saying I don't want a Cadillac, I would love one, especially the CTS. I would love lots of models - most non German as that market is now pretty well saturated in this scale in my opinion - but I know, the manufacturers are not going to risk their potential profit by making cars that will, unfortunately, only sell in low numbers and mstar called it right. The Cadillac - lovely models - but just not that popular in Europe and thus, not great additions for the run of the mill railroad modellers. Collectors yes, but that is not that great a number now I think. I would imagine, collectors alone will not achieve 5000 sales of such a model, whereas another Ford Mustang or VW Beetle would attract the collector and model railroader so thus maybe achieve, or at least get near to the 5000 mark. And, the American market is just too small, so that alone will not sell the units of a great American car.
So sadly, I am confined to hoping that now and then we get some different models. Certainly BoS are achieving that, though few to my actual taste but at least they are different to the mainstream German models. Also pleased to see Brekina doing a Daf, which is great and different, but of course, was popular in Europe (and Germany) so should do well.
Thanks for listening, Gary
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 12, 2017 17:23:38 GMT 1
Hi Gary,
Excellent point about the personal choices of the owners of the model manufacturers coming into play in the decision of the models to produce. While that’s normal, and human (I’d do the same if I ran one of the companies, and likely focus on Cadillacs and Jeeps), it’s one of the major roadblocks to the ongoing success of our scale. It seems that 1:43 scale has overcome this and churns out a vast array of brands in that scale from many global automotive markets, which lends to a self-supporting energy that attracts new potential collectors and hobbyists worldwide. Our scale had this energy through the ‘90s. Right now, the most important question to ask is why 1:43 scale is so profitable for manufacturers while they struggle to achieve that same success with 1:87 scale? What have they done with that scale that could be immediately applied to our scale?
The bosses of model manufacturers should develop a model selection process with the over-riding goal of generating higher revenues and broader market presence, which would likely mean picking successful prototypes from around the entire world. This would likely contribute to long-term profit growth. In addition, strong pre-sales promotional programs seem to be quite limited. Outside of announcements at Spielwarenmesse, the release of flyers at several points throughout the year, and a few emails sent by manufacturers and retail shops, promotional activities aren’t very robust. So much more could be done through social media today to generate excitement among prospective consumers without spending a lot of money. Repetition is a good thing when it comes to marketing product. Collectors should be able to tell you all of the details about an upcoming model long before its released and, hopefully, have access to a strong network of retailers to place pre-orders for the item.
Rietze’s Opel Vectra is an excellent case study in making the best selection of a prototype to model. There are likely several other examples that could be analyzed, including River Point Station’s Ford Expedition and Ricko’s Lexus RX. It seems that in a number of cases, manufacturers select models based on a prototype (1:1) that may have had strong sales in the home market, or which they think would be able to decorated in a variety of schemes (i.e., taxi, emergency vehicle, rail work vehicle, service vehicle), but don’t consider whether the 1:87 replica with be viewed as “exciting” by collectors, or how the prototype will translate into a tiny 1:87 scale model (vehicles with lots of chrome, ground effects and large alloy wheels…or, in sporting brand series like AMG and Brabus…remain eye-catching in HO scale). The Vectra and Expedition, while produced as very high-quality models, achieved little of that. Ricko’s Lexus RX was beautiful, but again, was it exciting enough or even, at the time of its production, relevant enough to collectors of 1:87 scale modern SUVs given its age in its life-cycle (Lexus introduced a replacement to the 1:1 around the time that Ricko introduced its model)? Then, there’s the issue of colors. If I’m remembering correctly, Ricko only introduced the Lexus in silver, black and white. This wasn’t very appealing or representative of a prototype that that had sold around the world in a full palate of beautiful paint schemes.
I’m not saying that your observations are incorrect, but it's imperative that model manufacturers enhance their market research to better understand what 1:87 scale collectors are seeking. As an example, in the late ‘90s when I was selling 1:87 scale models at large hobby train shows in the U.S. Mid-Atlantic, on two separate occasions I had women buy from me (which was very rare). But, what stood out most was that they both commented on the beautiful pastel metallic colors that Rietze has used on its models at the time. One of them even said, “They look like jewelry.” So, is there something there that’s being missed? Do the manufacturers have the potential to attract more collectors if the color palette of the models were broadened? Only consumer research will reveal this.
I’d hate to see manufacturers get hung up on the automotive brand when selecting prototypes to model. It’s true that a brand like Cadillac has almost no presence in the European automotive market. The same is true for Corvette…they’re almost non-existent. But, the brand is iconic in the minds of most Europeans, and it seems that BoS’s recent modern 1:87 ‘Vette sold well. And, as another example, River Point Station’s F-series pick-ups aren’t likely to be seen anywhere on European roads but they’re selling very well as HO scale models…among European and North American collectors.
Tony F.
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jim68cuda
Junior Member
It takes a Mopar to Catch a Mopar
Posts: 224
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Post by jim68cuda on Feb 12, 2017 23:30:12 GMT 1
Mid to late 60's American cars have been almost completely ignored by all 1/87 scale manufacturers (except for Mustangs, Vettes and Camaros). BoS had only done one car so far in this catagory, the 68 ElDorado. Last thing this scale needs is any more Porsche, BMW, VW,or Mercedes models.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Feb 13, 2017 2:59:33 GMT 1
Hi Gary, Excellent point about the personal choices of the owners of the model manufacturers coming into play in the decision of the models to produce. While that’s normal, and human (I’d do the same if I ran one of the companies, and likely focus on Cadillacs and Jeeps), it’s one of the major roadblocks to the ongoing success of our scale. It seems that 1:43 scale has overcome this and churns out a vast array of brands in that scale from many global automotive markets, which lends to a self-supporting energy that attracts new potential collectors and hobbyists worldwide. Our scale had this energy through the ‘90s. Right now, the most important question to ask is why 1:43 scale is so profitable for manufacturers while they struggle to achieve that same success with 1:87 scale? What have they done with that scale that could be immediately applied to our scale? The bosses of model manufacturers should develop a model selection process with the over-riding goal of generating higher revenues and broader market presence, which would likely mean picking successful prototypes from around the entire world. This would likely contribute to long-term profit growth. In addition, strong pre-sales promotional programs seem to be quite limited. Outside of announcements at Spielwarenmesse, the release of flyers at several points throughout the year, and a few emails sent by manufacturers and retail shops, promotional activities aren’t very robust. So much more could be done through social media today to generate excitement among prospective consumers without spending a lot of money. Repetition is a good thing when it comes to marketing product. Collectors should be able to tell you all of the details about an upcoming model long before its released and, hopefully, have access to a strong network of retailers to place pre-orders for the item. Rietze’s Opel Vectra is an excellent case study in making the best selection of a prototype to model. There are likely several other examples that could be analyzed, including River Point Station’s Ford Expedition and Ricko’s Lexus RX. It seems that in a number of cases, manufacturers select models based on a prototype (1:1) that may have had strong sales in the home market, or which they think would be able to decorated in a variety of schemes (i.e., taxi, emergency vehicle, rail work vehicle, service vehicle), but don’t consider whether the 1:87 replica with be viewed as “exciting” by collectors, or how the prototype will translate into a tiny 1:87 scale model (vehicles with lots of chrome, ground effects and large alloy wheels…or, in sporting brand series like AMG and Brabus…remain eye-catching in HO scale). The Vectra and Expedition, while produced as very high-quality models, achieved little of that. Ricko’s Lexus RX was beautiful, but again, was it exciting enough or even, at the time of its production, relevant enough to collectors of 1:87 scale modern SUVs given its age in its life-cycle (Lexus introduced a replacement to the 1:1 around the time that Ricko introduced its model)? Then, there’s the issue of colors. If I’m remembering correctly, Ricko only introduced the Lexus in silver, black and white. This wasn’t very appealing or representative of a prototype that that had sold around the world in a full palate of beautiful paint schemes. I’m not saying that your observations are incorrect, but it's imperative that model manufacturers enhance their market research to better understand what 1:87 scale collectors are seeking. As an example, in the late ‘90s when I was selling 1:87 scale models at large hobby train shows in the U.S. Mid-Atlantic, on two separate occasions I had women buy from me (which was very rare). But, what stood out most was that they both commented on the beautiful pastel metallic colors that Rietze has used on its models at the time. One of them even said, “They look like jewelry.” So, is there something there that’s being missed? Do the manufacturers have the potential to attract more collectors if the color palette of the models were broadened? Only consumer research will reveal this. I’d hate to see manufacturers get hung up on the automotive brand when selecting prototypes to model. It’s true that a brand like Cadillac has almost no presence in the European automotive market. The same is true for Corvette…they’re almost non-existent. But, the brand is iconic in the minds of most Europeans, and it seems that BoS’s recent modern 1:87 ‘Vette sold well. And, as another example, River Point Station’s F-series pick-ups aren’t likely to be seen anywhere on European roads but they’re selling very well as HO scale models…among European and North American collectors. Tony F. Dear Tony: Agreed.Besides 1/43 scale,1/64 scale also follows the global market and besides Mattel and Matchbox,NEO is also doing trucks in 1/64 scale and Schuco just introduced the Porsche Macan in that scale.Further,Matchbox did the Cadillac CSX Wagon in 1/64.Also notice that even Spark did some racing prototypes in three inch. What 1/87 scale needs is to think in broader terms.Vehicles for the European,Asian,North American and South American markets,as 1/43 and 1/64 scales are actually doing.Then it will became as a major collectible scale.BOS approach is the ticket;European,American and the small makes which makes them very desirable. I am a major collector of 1/43,1/64 and 1/87 scales,but I will not buy the excess of Mercedes,Porsche,VW,BMW from the latter scale and on Brekina's case,I appreciate all the selection of trucks that they been offering plus the selection of older European vehicles - and they do more makes than Mercedes and so on. Again,my two cents. Nick K
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jeffh
Junior Member
Posts: 120
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Post by jeffh on Feb 13, 2017 13:25:06 GMT 1
I think that the joker in the pack that may punish the mainstream 1:87 vehicle industry for its relative lack of vision is that of 3D printing.
I have bought items from the Jahn3D shop on Shapeways such as the T6 Ford Ranger, Toyota Prado, Mitsubishi L200 and Toyota Hilux that I could never have purchased from a mainstream 1:87 producer in a million years. I even managed to purchase a 1:87 scale Chevrolet Montana pickup which in 1:1 scale is only for sale in South America and Southern Africa.
Admittedly, the quality of the models due to the layering effect is not fantastic and it takes a lot of time and effort to smooth out the layering effect on the models and grind out the windows and door openings as well as robbing older vehicles in my collection to provide interiors for the models. Additionally, the costs of the models are quite high for what you get.
However, recently, the Jahn3D shop on Shapeways has started to release both a traditional “solid” model as well as a 2 piece “kit” version with a chassis, wheels and sets together with a hollow body, albeit with the kit being fairly expensive.
It is fair to say that at the moment, 3D printing meets the needs of those persons looking for 1:87 scale models outside of the standard German product range, but it is not a threat to the traditional manufacturers at this stage. However, if 3D printer technology follows the same course as other IT technology, in another 5 to 10 years, pricing should be closer to, if not lower than, the pricing of the mainstream models produced. This will mean that the potential markets which I have referred to in previous posts such a China, India and Brazil will be served by specialist 3D printing entities in those countries, producing 3D printed 1:87 kits of Geelys, Wulings, Fotons, Tatas, Marutis, VW Savieros and VW Gols. Although the more litigious environment in the US and the GM swallow test may limit the expansion in the 3D printing market in ths with regard to modern US vehicles, I can see a large expansion in the breadth of 3D printed US cars falling outside the time period for which a licence is required. Already, there is a very broad range of 60s, 70s and 80s models in the Jahn3D range, including the fabled Dodge St Regis. As the 2 piece 3D kit concept grows, quality of product increases and prices drop, the 3D market will grow strongly. At the same time, the mainstream 1:87 manufacturers will produce ever more specialised young-timer and classic models to serve a (literally) dying market of enthusiasts in Europe, with the only modern models being promotional models produced for Mercedes, VW, Audi and Porsche. Mercedes appear to still order the C, E and S Class promotion models, Audi is still strong in 1:87 scale and VW still appears to produce promotional models of new releases. The litmus test with BMW will be whether Herpa releases the next generation 2018 3 BMW 3 series without promotional model funding.
Unfortunately, for collectors of 1:87 scale modern vehicles, those individuals in Germany who heroically produce resin versions of modern vehicles as a personal passion instead of a business will age and may not be as prolific in their offerings as they have been in the past, which will also limit the availability of modern cars in 1:87 scale.
How do fellow members see the future of the hobby?
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Post by alcarter on Feb 13, 2017 17:14:15 GMT 1
Jeff,
I have purchased a few of the Jahn 3d printed models (both solid and hollow). I'm wondering if you would share your technique for smoothing out the layering issues? Sanding doesn't really work on the WSF (nylon) stuff, but is somewhat effective on the FUD material. What do you do?
Thanks,
Al Carter
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