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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 13, 2017 18:20:05 GMT 1
Jeff,
About seven years ago I posted a comment detailing one of the great points you've made. I said we're witnessing the Buick-izing of our hobby. Only a few years before that, the brand was almost dying because the car designs were old and catered to an aging base of consumers. Buick quickly got its act together, developed a very different business model (using fantastic, modern car designs from around the world), and identified the key motivators that drove the purchasing decisions of younger buyers. I fear that if 1:87 model manufacturers don't do the same, we'll witness a slow painful consolidation among the larger players.
I fully agree with you regarding the eventual rise of 3D printed product. The model production quality is rapidly improving. Several years ago when I broached the subject of possibly launching a small 1:87 scale model vehicle company with a friend from Russia, he repeatedly said we should use 3D technology (validating what you're saying). I told him I didn't think the print quality wasn't high enough yet, but it was definitely a fresh perspective from someone who'd never been in the model-making business. It's that thinking that provides HO scale an opportunity to successfully grow in a new era.
None of this can be done without improved consumer research and promotional strategies. I hope the manufacturers do more of that.
Tony F.
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Post by Cor_DutchArt on Feb 13, 2017 19:06:06 GMT 1
OK then... If you want other models as VW; Porsche and Mercedes and more US and other cars, I suppose you want to do something for it too. Or do you just want to buy one (or more) and place it on your layout? There are a lot of models by 87RPM, as many of you already discovered. Also models by JMK, DutchArt, Engh, Jankev and more vintage brands. But all these are kits. Very good quality, but kits.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 13, 2017 22:31:53 GMT 1
Cor_Dutchart,
I can't possibly speak for other collectors, including those who'd like to place replicas on their layouts and others who'd like to simply display their collection. Robust consumer research will highlight the desires of various customer groups by age-range, interest, amount willing to spend, desired level of detail, etc. This is especially important for the large manufacturers where each un-funded investment (i.e., not a requested promo model) has a major impact on the organization's cash-flow.
Personally speaking, the few times I've assembled models from a kit, I loved it. But, realistically I don't have the time to attempt to assemble more than one or two kits a year (and do them justice). I prefer assembled, highly detailed replicas, if the models are from eras I'm interested in collecting. However, if a kit of a vehicle I'm interested in is the only one of its kind available, I'll buy it (and tell myself that I'll work on it at some point in the future). And, if I had to guess, without supporting data, I'd assume that most collectors feel the same (especially younger folks who are used to having their hobbies handed to them without much effort or sweat equity). But, that's just my guess.
In general, if I like a replica [i.e., if it's modern, decent quality and new to the market, like BoS's Range Rover Evoque (even with the rear-view mirrors missing), I'll buy several examples of each]
Tony F.
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geco65
Junior Member
Posts: 197
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Post by geco65 on Feb 13, 2017 23:35:35 GMT 1
Dear Tony F. and all,
Some excellent and noteworthy points in your reply, thank you. I agree with much of what you say.
I would say that the 1:43 scale market is much bigger than the 1:87 scale market and I cannot ever imagine that being any different.
I was advised sometime back that model manufacturers in our scale did try to acquire feedback before production of a model, via retailers with order numbers. I am not sure how they did this, as one thing the industry is very good at, is keeping a secret ! So not sure this was accurate or at what stage this was undertaken. I do however agree, that it would be nice to generate more - and early - excitement with maybe customer polls or choices from a list supplied by the manufacturers as to what they are planning or able to do. The interaction with customers would thus be better and more personal.
I am intrigued to know how the Ricko Lexus sold, as the number on the second hand markets seem far less than other makes. There are many Ricko Alfa Romeos, Fiats, Lancias, Chryslers, though I note very few Mustangs, particularly those with the top up - in fact only seen two in over three years of looking. Thus, does this prove the point - Mustangs will sell over and over again, whereas other makes, may not hit the numbers.
Please don't get me wrong, but I think the vision and marketing of the 87th manufacturers is nearly right. They are making models that they expect to sell in the required numbers. I think we all look at it rather selfishly (me included) and want our Cadillacs, Lexus IS200, US 1960s cars, but these just do not sell in the required numbers to make the profit.
I was astounded last year when Wiking announced a new Range Rover and the two Volvo Amazon models. Why waste money on making models already done by other manufacturers I said ? However, subsequently, the Range Rover is a far better version than the Herpa model and I believe has sold well. It maintains a good second hand price on the market and I believe it has just won the PKW (car) category in the mo87.de model of the year votes recently. The Volvo Amazons look good and great quality, though hard to beat the Brekina models, but it comes back to strategy. Give Wiking the choice to build a new Cadillac or the existing Amazon. They know the Amazon will sell well, its popular in Europe and will be bought by collectors and model railroad enthusiasts for their dioramas. The Cadillac. It may sell to collectors, though hit and miss, but I think it would struggle to sell to model railroaders, particularly in Europe where their market is. Thus, the Amazon wins hands down.
Sorry if controversial, but its a very European dominated market and though I would love to see more variation, I can see why now, that the major manufacturers stick to a set formula. To go 'off piste' would potentially bring the company to its knees. A big price to pay I am sure you all agree.
Agree with comments on 3d printing. Down the line this could be big. However, if its that big, I think the manufacturers will come on board with the idea and bring out their own models via this medium.
Kits. Cor, I totally agree, plenty of kits about of unusual models. I have started to make a few myself, but not being an expert the end result (though quite pleasing) is not as perfect as a ready made bought model from the manufacturer. Given the choice, I would much prefer to spend money on a model from Herpa / Brekina etc then build my own. However, it is probably the only way I will get some of the models I desire in this scale as no manufacturer is going to go out on a limb and make an Austin Allegro, a Morris Marina or a Ford Cortina Mk II (well, maybe V&V ?).
Thus, I think the manufacturers in this scale will say we are providing models that our collectors/customers want and are therefore, indirectly listening to them.
The future of 87th scale models. Sorry, but quite bleak I think. The scale will diminish in terms of numbers of collectors & railroad enthusiasts. Computers, virtual reality etc is more interesting to the kids of today then model cars and trains. I have a collection of over 700 model cars and regularly ask my son (in his teens) would he like my model collection when I go. He always says no, not interested. Manufacturers who come into this market seem to disappear quite quickly too e.g Ricko, Masterpiece, Rietze (in terms of cars). The long standing manufacturers e.g.Herpa, Brekina, Wiking, Busch will remain, but we have seen in recent years that the number of new models is much less and many of them are only produced via promotional budgets from the big actual car makers. Also, costs of models are rising. I have seen a significant rise in prices of new models in the last year and this will only deter some people getting into this scale. You can buy a 1:43 scale model for the price of some of our new models. Another reason why we will see less of our desired wish lists as manufacturers try to maximise profit with a limited number of models that they know will sell - very few gambles.
However, I still love the scale and am still collecting new and old models and expanding my collection slowly through kits and models from lesser known companies in central Europe. So, not giving up and still composing wish lists - just in case !
Thanks again, Gary
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 14, 2017 4:00:50 GMT 1
Cor_Dutchart.
If you are going to be responsible for the production of HO Cadillac CTS and SRX versions for example, I'll guarantee you I'll buy at least 10 of each make. Don't believe it? I'll post photos of them on my layout in close-up photos. Trust me, I will NOT buy just 1 or 2. Of course, this applies to types like Herpa assembled or Herpa Minikits in plastic (for comparison).
Vito L.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 14, 2017 21:40:57 GMT 1
Gary,
You've nailed it regarding the current situation among manufacturers and a market environment that justifies their desire to remain relatively risk averse when it comes to selecting new prototypes to model. In general, they're sticking to known quantities, and I'm sure I'd want to do the same if I was running one of those organizations. But, I do believe that it's this extreme desire to avoid all but the safest business decisions that is slowly building the most challenging road-blocks for the scale. There have been some recent sales successes that, if replicated, or re-introduced in modified form, would prove successful again, even without complete sales data for support. These include the following:
-Masterpiece's Jeep Wrangler -River Point Station's Ford F-Series Pick-up Series -BoS’s Chevrolet Corvette (C7) Stingray (an estimate, based on online sales) -Almost anything out there by Spark, due to the limited production quantities (as evidenced by online sales and closing prices)
I’m sure there are many others out there like these but, as you mentioned, most of the manufacturers keep sales data close to the chest. So, there are definitely alternatives for manufacturers beyond Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and Audi as the industry moves forward seeking new growth opportunities. They just likely need to be from automotive brands that are iconic and well-admired by both collectors and the public in general (e.g., Jeep, Ford, Renault, Skoda, Chevrolet, Citroen, GMC, Cadillac, etc). In addition, prototypes chosen must have a bold, distinctive presence on the road (like Cross-overs, Sport-utes or large dynamic Pick-ups). These vehicles generate the kind of consumer excitement that translates well to the collector market. They’ve been a staple on North American roads for decades and are taking Europe by storm. Producing replicas of these vehicles would, however, be merely a stop-gap until the model-makers were able to study each segment of their audience better, revealing undiscovered and untapped opportunities.
I can only hope that the model companies take note of all of our observations and continue to take the tiniest of risks in different directions to move our scale forward in new and exciting directions.
Tony F.
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geco65
Junior Member
Posts: 197
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Post by geco65 on Feb 14, 2017 22:56:14 GMT 1
Dear Tony F,
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I too believe, that down the line, the manufacturers will have to move out of their current comfort zones. If the current young generation show little interest in this scale and the older generation get older and (possibly) take little interest in new models, preferring the older cars they remember on the roads as kids, then I am convinced they will need to do something different. It is a potential problem looming as you rightly say.
You are absolutely correct with your examples of sales successes to my knowledge too. The Wranglers sell at huge prices on the second hand market and are all snapped up, the RPS Ford F series models sell well and at good prices. The Corvette (and Eldorado too) from BoS seem rare already. Either a small production number or very popular. And Spark, yes, enormous prices on the second hand market for Aston Martins, Bentleys, Lancia and Lotus. I have a feeling, like Minichamps and the recent Ford Focus models, they only produce very low numbers, in the hundreds, so that helps, but at least they know they can sell all produced - so can command the right retail price.
It would be lovely to have more diversity both in car brands and types of vehicle, as you say, pick ups, SUVs seem to do well e.g. RPS, Wrangler and VW Amarok from Wiking and I think it will come, though like now, quite slowly.
I am sure we will get some nice surprises in the future but my feeling is that it will be infrequent and just not too risky, though currently BoS seems to be going out on a limb and doing things differently. It will be interesting to see how their sales perform. Lets hope I am wrong though.
Thanks, Gary
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 15, 2017 3:51:25 GMT 1
As I've said before, BoS is my favorite HO company right now for cars and specialty vehicles. They take chances , they realize there are other makes besides all of the previously mentioned Mercedes, BMW, ETC. They also realize that Cadillac is a strong marquee name in many parts of the world and I will buy every different type they make, period. I wish they would offer more colors; how about 3 colors per vehicle?
The F-Series Ford pickup should be done by RPS again, how about the F-150 next from 2008?
Vito L.
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 16, 2017 3:26:29 GMT 1
All,
It was announced yesterday in Autocar.co.uk that the head of Opel has been in covert negotiations along with GM to possibly sell the Opel and Vauxhall brands to France's PSA (Peugeot). Let's hope we see a few 1:87 Opel replicas out of it if the transaction is completed (preferably exciting SUVs).
Tony F.
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geco65
Junior Member
Posts: 197
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Post by geco65 on Feb 16, 2017 21:16:30 GMT 1
Dear Tony F.,
I seem to be the merchant of doom everytime we speak lol.
However, if Peugeot take over GM Europe (Opel and Vauxhall) I think it will make very little difference to our scale. Our only hope is that Norev take an interest, but as they seem particularly (and fair play to them) interested in French vehicles then I think we have nil - or zero points - chance of Opel models from Norev or anyone.
Thanks, Gary (sorry)
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Post by ensemble187 on Feb 17, 2017 5:08:42 GMT 1
Hi Gary,
I agree with you that the likelihood of seeing a modern Opel or Vauxhall 1:87 scale replica is slim. I guess the silver lining in this announcement is the possibility of having this portion of GM's product portfolio freed from the swallow test size restrictions (if GM relinquishes full control of the brands). This might then afford a player like Best of Show or Minichamps an opportunity to model an Opel or two (SUVs please). The chance is slim but it could move 1:87 scale forward a step or two.
Tony F.
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stanhas87
87thScale addict
1978 Dodge Monaco CHP
Posts: 4,906
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Post by stanhas87 on Mar 4, 2017 18:51:46 GMT 1
Dear All:
Good points all.Thing is,most collectors choose a range of vehicles to collect say as an example,Chrysler.They on the big majority will not select the scale and if the Dodge Saint Regis I wanted so much had come first in 1/25 scale,so be it (the first 1978 Monaco I like so much came as a T.J. Hooker car kit in 1983;the HO correspondent came ten year later and that only because Busch's Manager did liked American cars;otherwise,that will not had happened).In the USA 1/43 and 1/64 scales,alongside the larger 1/25 kits were the base models that people would collect.I had the arguments from Mark (Mo87 collaborator) how toy-ish 1/64 are and they are except for the new Greenlight,Schuco,M2 Castline and Auto World which had taken this scale to another range and these are models despite which many still say.On another point,as 1/43,the three inch range kept actual on the vehicles they offered and not only to a continent;they also had Brazilian cars offered as did IXO.1/43 scale always kept actual.
The 1/87 scale were to my view,more on a 'bubble' kind of situation.It may fair good on European market because for them the size is perfect;in North America,is perfect for the train operators only so one will,as Herpa,only offer European prototypes and the other 'major' HO manufacturers followed the same league.Busch was one the temporary big exceptions and others such as Motormax did not followed it very much.As of now,even with BOS and Oxford,things did not changed much.
The three dimensional printing is closing the gaps on vehicles that no one - be 1/43,1/64,1/87 and other scales - wanted to make them (tooling costs and be afraid not to recover such costs).This being said,I have all these station wagons from the 1980's which will not be done by no one else;in the case of the Regis,I even beg to Matchbox but not matter...I had to wait 33 years for that to come out.
Also notice some cases such Smokey and the Bandit.Several variations of the Firebird made;none of the 1977 Pontiac Gran Le Mans the Police Officer drove.The model does exist in three dimension;now Greenlight is releasing it for 2017.
1/87 scale is great,but even as now it runs on a very limited set of thinking perhaps because its sales are most fluent on a single area and most see it suitable for the train models.The former Author of model Auto Review noticed - that in the 1990's - that the car hobby is slowing down (not to a zero but not as big as times before the 1980's) and in some aspects,the policies will be the same,so the brands can stay around albeit one hear of many quittings yearly.
Previously,tpy-ish cars of no one wanted to do,such as the Pontiac Aero Coupe (1/45 scale;China);Willys Aero Lark 1953 (MPC);AMC Matador (Summer).A snall example.
Future?Perhaps the same faced as stamps and coins,as the interest faded away.
Again,my two and final two cents.
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Markus
Junior Member
Posts: 150
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Post by Markus on Mar 31, 2017 15:27:06 GMT 1
Dear Enthusiasts
From a European perspective, it is not easy to offer American cars. There are 3 important points for this: 1. Original US vehicles are rarely used on European roads. Only in Switzerland are strikingly many "Amis" on the road.
2. There are hardly any official dealers for US cars available. And if so, not every type is offered. This has many reasons: The Ford Flex underscores the eco-performance of Ford Europe, which means higher taxes for all Ford vehicles. From the CTS / DTS / STS only the CTS were officially crashed. Cadillac certified all 3, because they are basically constructed in the same way. Switzerland accepted this, and gave it all 3 at the dealer. The European Union accepted only the crashed CTS. The others were only allowed to be introduced as a second hand from Switzerland. Shelby's Cobra is a kit car in the US and does not need to be crashed. This vehicle can no longer be registered in Europe.
3. The oldimer scene offers a wide range of US cars. Since these are usually not from the home market but imported as an oldie they are usually regarded as exotics. A harsh point is also that American cars look different every year. Do I want exactly my car? Poor, in the model there is only the vintage next to it available.
In summary, this means that rarely apply, small selection of types and exotic status coupled with unwill and restrictions from the US manufacturers result in a very poor starting position for a good business. For collectors this is not easy because the industrial production is due to high number of pieces and avoids the risk.
But for model makers there is light at the end of the tunnel. Funnily, Americans are not the leaders in the 1:87 model car kit scene for American role models. Some small series kit manufacturers around MO87 offer a nice selection and variety of US vehicles.
Sincerely Markus
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Post by ensemble187 on May 6, 2017 19:38:43 GMT 1
Hello Markus,
In general, I agree with your responses. It is more difficult to make the case for offering 1:87 replicas of American automobiles and SUVs. However, there are a number of American vehicles that have (or were) on the market in Europe for a number of years. An example of this is the Chrysler Voyager. In fact, a number of Chrysler products had a presence in Europe until moved those models under the Lancia brand, and eventually pulled them out of the Continent. There are also a number of Ford products offered in both markets (e.g., Ford Focus, Ford Mondeo sedan).
Cadillac was mentioned as a possible option because it does have a general presence in Europe, and European model collectors may find this brand interesting and exotic enough to consider including HO scale replicas of some of their models in a collection. Their marketing efforts may vary by country, but at least they are one of the last U.S. brands to have a presence (http://www.cadillaceurope.com/).
Past American products that might be considered "Youngtimers" that were marketed throughout Europe include the mid-1990s Ford Explorer and several Buick branded models. So, 1:87 replicas of those vehicles might sell well with both American and European collectors.
Collectors don't even need to be presented with a 1:87 replica of each and every American car offered on the European market, just a small sampling of dynamic American designs to broaden the current range of models on offer. And, hopefully, we'll witness a re-introduction of the Opel brand now that it's going to be operating under the PSA Team.
It's wonderful that Minichamps is taking the risk and offering a broad range of exciting models over the next few years. These will help to fill a gaping void of non-existent modern replicas.
Have a great weekend!
Tony F.
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Post by swampdaddy on Sept 20, 2018 23:23:41 GMT 1
Hi all: Tried to read all posts to see what this thread was all about. Certainly, if I were only a collector perhaps the larger scales would be more appealing. However, they can take up an awful lot of room. I have a few 1/64 (for AF trains mostly at Christmas time)and larger scales up to 1/18 they being almost all either Mustangs or Packards. And, I leave them in the original boxes even when on display as I find "DUST" to be the evil enemy of them out of the packages.
1/87 I can usually pick up and blow them off to clear out the dust. I am not that interested in opening doors or hoods; I have one Franklin Mint Packard where even the steering wheel works a bit in 1/24th as I recall.
1/87 for me to go with my other models in that scale. Interesting discussion though.
have fun, Swamp Daddy
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