Die Cast vs Injection Moulded

[skunk]

Just read the long list of new Die-cast offerings from Siku, along with Ricko and Schuco.

Is this good for our hobby? It could be seen as either a doorway for young collectors, or as stealing market share from the more "serious" injection moulded plastic models.

I guess that my fear is that companies like Busch and Brekina will be wary of offering models that are already available elsewhere as die-cast toys. Maybe we will never see a high quality Alfa Romeo Spider, for instance.

[Marc S.]

Håkan,

Ricko's 1/87th scale models are injection-moulded plastic (and I am very happy with that fact!).

I am unsure whether Wiking, Herpa, Busch and the other "traditionalists" regard the Chinese die-cast offerings as like. They play in a totally different league, after all, because of the price undercutting plastic models by 50%. In most cases, I think the new metal entrants are models we wouldn't have seen if not for a die-cast item from China. Hence, I am happy they exist. And Model Power's/High Speed's Alfa Spider isn't too bad, for that matter.

I agree (and hope) that most manufacturers will avoid duplicating existing models, be they injection-moulded plastic or die-cast metal. On the other hand, Wiking and Busch constantly show they don't mind doing very similar models twice (Citroen DS, Borgward Isabella Coupé, and Messerschmidt Kabinenroller come to my mind).

Taking into account that 1/87th scale die-cast offering are not generally marketed as collector's items (Nick will disagree here), but as toys -and are such meant to attract a completely different audience- I do not regard the metal models as so much of a danger for the future of 1/87th scale plastic models. Quite the contrary might come true - affordable die-cast products attract younger or elsewise new blood to the hobby, which makes for a larger market volume, which results in a wider variety of high-quality, large-series injection-moulded plastic models.

By the way, I am a pathologic optimist

Marc S.

[stanhas87]

Marc said:

Taking into account that /87th scale die-cast offering are not generally marketed as collector's items (Nick will disagree here), but as toys; and are such meant to attract a completely different audience. So, I do not regard the metal models as so much of a danger for the future of 1/87th scale plastic models. Quite the contrary might come true - affordable die-cast products attract younger or elsewise new bllod to the hobby, which makes for a larger market volume, which results in a wider variety of high-quality, large-series injection-moulded plastic models.

Marc S.

Dear Sirs:

One of the things that I leraned that image is a good seller. That means that Wiking,Herpa and the like will keep molding their plastic wares because this is what they are associated with and at all, plastic can bear more details than any kind of metal. If they would switch to die-cast,customers will not take their efforts seriously, because due to their image standing, they are not supposed to mold such kind of products.

Siku is a diecast manufacturer,and again, this is their standing image and lets why their products are diecast;similary, Model Power is the sucessor of Playart who was a 1/64 (and at times,1/87) diecast manufacturer.

Well, toys or perhaps quasi-model items in order to keep their price low; if one details them then they can become decent models.I have Model Powers Thunderbird and Mercedes Van and I consider decent but not extraordinary renditions.

And one should remember that Wiking,Herpa,Busch,Rietze Roco et all built their reputation by molding extraordinarily detailed models in plastic and that the way the collector community see them. Doing something else will not a good deal for them. Very few people - that is my opinion - know or care about the 1/40 scale Wikings or 1/43 or 1/66 scale Herpas.

On this issue I also add that I am glad when I see a new car model coming by be it considered a model or toy. The new Thunderbird,as an example,is only made by Model Power; since I doubt that Herpa or Wiking will undertake a Chrysler 300 model,I would be glad if the Hongwell molds one and labels it as however they want. As Marc, I do not care to see many duplicates of the same car, but at times the details of the same differ by manufacturer or different eras of the same are molded. But still, no duplicates.

As I been saying all along: if someone does it,I am happy. And I do not think that the diecast items are a threat to the plastic items since the latter can bear by far more details.

[BillC]

There is not the threat one might expect. The situation is not that same as it is with the Chinese beer trucks undermining Herpa's promotional market.

For one thing, there are a large number of prototypes that have never been produced in 1/87 scale. A number of these, though they might be of some interest to the international collecting community, would not be considered by Busch, Herpa, Rietze or Wiking.

For another thing, Ricko and Highspeed are not particularly interested in the short runs offered by the German modelmakers. For example, police or fire brigade models. Ricko, especially, needs a long run with few changes to meet its production requirements. On the other hand, Busch, Herpa, Rietze and Wiking do quite well by repeatedly reissuing the same model in a variety of liveries.

For this reason, Highspeed or Ricko would be the best source of a model of a Chrysler PT Cruiser, which has been sold with relatively few changes since its introduction. Busch would be the best source for a Chevrolet Impala, which could appear in dozens of police, taxi and fire brigade color schemes.

As for the valuable promotional contracts, I wouldn't worry too much. Nice as the Highspeed and Ricko models are, they are not the equal of the German products and, for reasons I won't discuss, I do not see them becoming comparable anytime soon. BMW, Volkswagen, Audi and Mercedes all seem to be happy with the quality of their models and their ability to sell them to collectors at a tidy profit.

[skunk]

I surely hope that I did not appear as a pessimist, as I begun this thread to find out what everyone else thought on the matter.

I am very glad to realize (and shame on me for not knowing) that the Ricko's are plastic - in the pictures I have seen, their models looked somewhat less crisp than what I have been spoiled with by German injection moulders.

My main problem with die-cast metal is that it makes the models somewhat difficult to modify, although certainly not impossible. On the plus side, now we have reasonably good models of unlikely cars such as the T-bird.


Finally, if there has to be duplication, I would much rather see there be one "toy" Isabella and one "model" Isabella, than two of equal quality.

[only87]

skunk said:

I am very glad to realize (and shame on me for not knowing) that the Ricko's are plastic.

I seriously doubt you didn't know, as you were the first to post that fact in the Ricko thread...

[superba]

I think the key to modifying Diecast models is to convert them to plastic, then modify.

Simple resin casting techniques allow me to make a cast of the Classic Metal minaitures 61 Chevy. I was then able modify the casting in order to make a 62 Chevy.

Total casting costs , probably less than $10.00

www.87thscale.info/images/JF_Chevrolet1962.jpg
[/img]

Joe

[only87]

I personally always disliked die-cast models for two reasons, first the poor detailling in competition with plastic, which isn't so easy to modify due to the material and, second, the weight of the model. I also didn't like white-metal kits so much for the weight reason. I mostly have plastic and resin models and a heavy model just steps out the line somehow for me. And another reason may be that I'm a truck builder, too. If you take for example a Matchbox cab and put it on a more detailled plastic chassis, there's a risk that the model won't stay solid but tip to the front unless you put a trailer on.
That's why I never got too excited when another die-cast model was announced.
But as Joe says, resin casting is an interesting thing. Since I started experimenting with it, my unease towards die-cast has gone completely.
On the negative side it takes some time making the molds, casting the model and refining the casting until you finally can build up the model you wanted. But on the other hand it's just fun. And not only that, I've tried two different sorts of resin, the first one had quite a huge shrinking factor, the second nearly had none, that leaves a lot of additional possibilities, if I'm thinking of my Lima nd Minix vehicles. To me casting has become something like another hobby that goes hand in hand with modelling. As I said, the only bad thing is time, now I have to handle two hobbies with my spare time. I would advice to try cating to anyone, who dislikes most of the die-cast offerings, it really might change your point of view.

So finally the difference for me is, plastic models are for collecting and modelling, die-cast is for casting and modelling. Since I'm not really a collector, I won't bother too much, if there will never be a Brekina Alfa Duetto, the Model Power model is just fine as a basis. The main reason I would buy a Brekina model is that I could concentrate on modifying other unsatisfying models, condensed in a short word, again: time.

[stanhas87]

Dear Sirs:

One of the main factors about diecasting is the fact that recent models are metal and plastic and some models have the chassi screwed not riveted to the body;hence changes are highly possible.

Fascinating views above.I also knew someone who had the ability to reproduce die-cast models in resin and as it was stated above it is a simple process.

I collect both versions and can say that at the last ten years even the diecast had an unprecedent amount of details that would be considered impossible to be done a while ago; perhaps it is the plastic/die-cast factor which allows such progress.

[cfesmire]

We all of course, love the detail afforded with plastic injected molding. I feel however that if something is being offered in diecast that is not available in plastic, we should welcome it. I like Joes attitude towards diecast in that he overcomes what he doesn't like by improvising with resin casts. I don't cast in resin (yet??) so this isn't an option for me but I have found ways to make diecast pieces, even of the poorest quality, reasonably respectable. I will also add that diecast pieces take paint very nicely and allow for some interesting alternatives for painting as well. I have anodized diecast pieces with pretty nifty results.
The price always reflects the quality of the piece too. Most diecast vehicles are very affordable. Mini Metals, Imex and even the occasional Italeri pieces can be had for under $5 making them perfect opportunities for some to break into the hobby inexpensively. I doubt very much wether a diecast piece will ever be the benchmark model in my collection, but there will always be a few in the mix.

[BillC]

Although I am devoted to plastic for modeling, diecast models are finding far more homes in my collection, especially the Highspeed "multi-media" (metal, plastic) versions from Schuco and Model Power.

I started adding diecast models with a few of the cars from Classic Metal Works and some of these are still among my favorites. I am hoping the quality of the new competition will inspire Bill Giacci to improve his future offerings.

[stanhas87]

Dear Sirs:

I been doing the inventory that I promised myself and just located the Playing Mantis/Johnny Lightning International 4700 Van truck.I looked at its chassi and these is held to the body by screws. Hence it is a good item to be costumized and it seems that it has a host of Plastic components in it.

[skunk]

only87 said:

I seriously doubt you didn't know, as you were the first to post that fact in the Ricko thread...

Oops, that makes me even more embarrassed about forgetting that the Rickos are plastic.